Obama Is Not Pro Life and He Wants Taxpayers to Pay for Abortions

[heather223]

There has been no attacking or knocking each other here on this thread. It has been a very good back and forth discussion. The only people who seem to be offended by it are the ones who just come on to say to stop attacking, etc.....

Sorry if I came across as offended or to say that we are knocking each other, it wasn't my intent. My thought was that I was thinking out loud about something I am learning and that related to this thread. I have to say if I wasn't confused about what I believe before, I most cetainly am after taking this Ethics class. I guess I am just saying/ thinking... how does anyone one of us know that what we believe is the '"right" one so to speak.... Hope that makes sense.

 

[Hathery]

Sorry if I came across as offended or to say that we are knocking each other, it wasn't my intent. My thought was that I was thinking out loud about something I am learning and that related to this thread. I have to say if I wasn't confused about what I believe before, I most cetainly am after taking this Ethics class. I guess I am just saying/ thinking... how does anyone one of us know that what we believe is the '"right" one so to speak.... Hope that makes sense.

It makes sense to me! I think that's where faith comes in. You have to have faith that what you believe is right. And if you don't...well, then you're just stuck with a lot of questions like me

 

[heather223]

It makes sense to me! I think that's where faith comes in. You have to have faith that what you believe is right. And if you don't...well, then you're just stuck with a lot of questions like me

You and me both.

 

[ChefBeckyD]

Sorry if I came across as offended or to say that we are knocking each other, it wasn't my intent. My thought was that I was thinking out loud about something I am learning and that related to this thread. I have to say if I wasn't confused about what I believe before, I most cetainly am after taking this Ethics class. I guess I am just saying/ thinking... how does anyone one of us know that what we believe is the '"right" one so to speak.... Hope that makes sense.

That makes sense. Where are you taking this class? Is it from a secular college with a professor who may be an atheist or agnostic? You have to understand that what you are being taught is also just someone's opinion - and you need to understand their worldview is coloring what and how they teach. Don't just accept it as truth.

If you would like, I could recommend some good reading material on distinguishing absolute truth.

 

[BethCooks4U]

Sorry if I came across as offended or to say that we are knocking each other, it wasn't my intent. My thought was that I was thinking out loud about something I am learning and that related to this thread. I have to say if I wasn't confused about what I believe before, I most cetainly am after taking this Ethics class. I guess I am just saying/ thinking... how does anyone one of us know that what we believe is the '"right" one so to speak.... Hope that makes sense.

I think we are responsible to process the information that we are exposed to and determine what we can believe in. All religions really have the same premise and rules, it's just the (man dictated?) details that separate them. The same golden rule applies: Treat others as you would have others treat you. I believe that if you follow that and have conversations with God (pray) you are at least on the right track.

 

[Hathery]

I think we are responsible to process the information that we are exposed to and determine what we can believe in. All religions really have the same premise and rules, it's just the (man dictated?) details that separate them. The same golden rule applies: Treat others as you would have others treat you. I believe that if you follow that and have conversations with God (pray) you are at least on the right track.

I agree with that, too. I visited a Hindu Temple last night with a friend of mine who is taking a cultural studies course in college, and we were very surprised to find out that the main concepts of Hinduism are very similar to Christianity. I think it's important to learn about other people and their beliefs, so we can focus on how we are all similar...not frighten ourselves with how we are different (as so many have done with Islam.)

 

[ChefBeckyD]

I think we are responsible to process the information that we are exposed to and determine what we can believe in. All religions really have the same premise and rules, it's just the (man dictated?) details that separate them. The same golden rule applies: Treat others as you would have others treat you. I believe that if you follow that and have conversations with God (pray) you are at least on the right track.

However - this verse is from the Bible - "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Matthew 7:12.

I've never seen that in any other religious readings that I've done. (the Koran, for example)

 

[heather223]

That makes sense. Where are you taking this class? Is it from a secular college with a professor who may be an atheist or agnostic? You have to understand that what you are being taught is also just someone's opinion - and you need to understand their worldview is coloring what and how they teach. Don't just accept it as truth.

If you would like, I could recommend some good reading material on distinguishing absolute truth.

It is an online school and there is no professor. All reading material. Which I have to admit, is kind of interesting, but at the same time very dry and hard to navigate. It gives the history of each religion, which I know is important, but me, I really just want to know the ins and outs of what each one believes. Kind of straight and to the point. I thought it was just going to be another college class that I have to take, but this one really does have me thinking and addressing what I believe.

 

[AnnieBee]

I don't think it is attacking someone else's faith to say, "as a Christian, I believe that only Christians will go to heaven when they die". That is just explaining what our faith teaches. IMO it is the same as if Muslim stated that they believe that only Muslims will go to heaven. Do you see what I mean? No-one is writing "you're all going to hell!" - which would probably not be the best way to put it, even if that is what you think . Does this make any sense?

 

[Hathery]

However - this verse is from the Bible - "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Matthew 7:12.

I've never seen that in any other religious readings that I've done. (the Koran, for example)

I found an interesting essay on the Golden Rule. It's a very unique perspective on it. http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=1113&C=1191

 

[Hathery]

It is an online school and there is no professor. All reading material. Which I have to admit, is kind of interesting, but at the same time very dry and hard to navigate. It gives the history of each religion, which I know is important, but me, I really just want to know the ins and outs of what each one believes. Kind of straight and to the point. I thought it was just going to be another college class that I have to take, but this one really does have me thinking and addressing what I believe.

That's why I am a Unitarian Universalist. We have no creed or doctrine, only these principles:

-The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
-Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
-Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
-A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
-The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
-The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
-Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

The whole goal of the church is to find your own spiritual path, and find answers to the questions that we as humans seek. Some UU's are Christians, some are atheist/agnostic. It's a unique blend of ideas, but all are welcome to share and find their own truth.

 

[AnnieBee]

That's why I am a Unitarian Universalist. We have no creed or doctrine, only these principles:

-The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
-Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
-Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
-A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
-The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
-The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
-Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

The whole goal of the church is to find your own spiritual path, and find answers to the questions that we as humans seek. Some UU's are Christians, some are atheist/agnostic. It's a unique blend of ideas, but all are welcome to share and find their own truth.

The problem with this, for me, is that it negates the importance of absolute truth. It's message is, find something to believe in, as long as it feels right to you, and you treat others well. But this idea, that as long as you are not hurting others it is OK, that your "spiritual path" is OK if it will "work for you" is flawed if you will consider the issue of absolute truth. And if you are wrong, the consequences are HUGE!

Not so long ago, people fervently believed that the earth was flat. They were wrong!! Fervent belief is just not good enough, if what you believe in is not true. Believing something does not make it true. What is true, is true, and what is false is false. And given that we are talking about eternity here, it seems to me that it is pretty important to figure out what the truth is! Our life-time on earth is just a drop in the ocean compared to where we spend eternity, so I'd be sure that I've made the right choices. And there IS an absolute truth. Not every religion can be right. Many of them DO claim to be "the only way", therefore if one of them is right, then others of them are not. If you believe that "everyone can believe what they want, and if they live a moral life are following a path to heaven", you are ignoring the fact that some of these people believe that only their way is "right", and therefore everyone having their own "truth" cannot logically be right. Either the people who think their way is the only way are wrong, or the "others" are worng, but not everyone can be right. Does that make any sense?

So, I think it is important to consider what the truth is. Obviously as a Christian, I believe that one needs salvation through Christ and a personal relationship with him to spend eternity in heaven. And as a scientist, I made this decision through the evidence I've seen and read, and yes, through taking a step of faith too. If you'd like any suggestions (anyone!) of reading materials, I have a few suggestions. And I'd be interested in Becky's literature recommendations on the issue of absolute truth too.

And, I think it was Hathery who made a comment about not being concerned about life after death "right now". I just want to you to consider that none of us has any idea what tomorrow will bring. I personally have an uncle who just had a heart attack, is really ill, and the doctors don't know why or what to do. My old PhD advisor is currently battling recently diagnosed cancer. People are hit by cars and killed every day. Now of course the odds are in your favour, but given the *possible* out-comes, eternity in heaven or hell, (and yes I know not everyone believes in life after death, but all I'm saying is what if it *is* true), I'd want to be sure I had thought about it NOW, and not just wait until it seems more relevant, hoping that I don't die before I make the right decision.

Anyway, hope this makes sense, I'm typing in a hurry with kids banging drums all around me. Well, not all around, but close enough to be distracting... I am truly trying to be thought provoking, not preachy, if it helps! I hope that comes through... Sorry this turned out to be so long.

 

[ChefBeckyD]

Annie - thank you for your eloquence. I've been trying to form a response in my mind - but you said what I would have said, only better!

For books dealing with absolute truth:

The Shelter - A Francis A. Schaeffer Site


Francis Schaeffer was an incredible modern day philosopher and theologian.
A few books that I have read by him that were excellent:

The God Who Is There
He Is There And He Is Not Silent
How Should We Then Live?
The Mark Of A Christian


Interestingly - he makes a point of using proofs apart from the Bible to prove the existance of God in our lives today.



For a little easier reading -

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
The Case For Christ and
The Case For Faith by Lee Strobel

 

[AnnieBee]

Thanks Becky, for the link/books. I'm not sure about being eloquent, I wish I had more time to really make sure I'm being clear!

My own suggestions for reading material are the Lee Strobel books. He is a trained lawyer and investigative journalist who was an agnostic. He (reluctantly!) came to Christ after investigating Christ and the christian faith for himself. His books are "The Case for Christ", "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for a Creator".

My advice to anyone wanting to learn more and find the truth is - read, read, read. The Bible, other teachings of diferent faiths, books written by theologans and philosophers, books by people who have investigated what they believe. Learn about other faiths. And PRAY, even if it is to "God, if you exist...".

Talk to people of different faiths. I have no problem with someone investigating different beliefs as well as Christianity, because I have confidence that my faith is in the one true God, and the only way to salvation. Please don't take that as arrogance, but as me saying that my faith makes perfect sense to me through my experiences, the testimony of others, reading the Bible and my own intellectual investigation. And so I believe that someone who prayerfully *seeks to find the truth* and learns about different faiths as well as about Christianity will come to the same conclusion.

 

[janetupnorth]

I agree Annie - hence the last verse in my signature.

 

[ChefBeckyD]

Thanks Becky, for the link/books. I'm not sure about being eloquent, I wish I had more time to really make sure I'm being clear!

My own suggestions for reading material are the Lee Strobel books. He is a trained lawyer and investigative journalist who was an agnostic. He (reluctantly!) came to Christ after investigating Christ and the christian faith for himself. His books are "The Case for Christ", "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for a Creator".

My advice to anyone wanting to learn more and find the truth is - read, read, read. The Bible, other teachings of diferent faiths, books written by theologans and philosophers, books by people who have investigated what they believe. Learn about other faiths. And PRAY, even if it is to "God, if you exist...".

Talk to people of different faiths. I have no problem with someone investigating different beliefs as well as Christianity, because I have confidence that my faith is in the one true God, and the only way to salvation. Please don't take that as arrogance, but as me saying that my faith makes perfect sense to me through my experiences, the testimony of others, reading the Bible and my own intellectual investigation. And so I believe that someone who prayerfully *seeks to find the truth* and learns about different faiths as well as about Christianity will come to the same conclusion.

Francis Shaeffer was also an Agnostic who was searching for Truth. I love his books because they lay out the logical procession of Relativism, and Existentialism. I admire Lee Strobel immensely - I've heard him speak several times, and I recommend his books to people all the time. But when battling against what is being taught in Secular College Courses today, I think that Francis Shaeffer is the best. The best Apologist of the 20th Century.

 

[Hathery]

Thanks Becky, for the link/books. I'm not sure about being eloquent, I wish I had more time to really make sure I'm being clear!

My own suggestions for reading material are the Lee Strobel books. He is a trained lawyer and investigative journalist who was an agnostic. He (reluctantly!) came to Christ after investigating Christ and the christian faith for himself. His books are "The Case for Christ", "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for a Creator".

My advice to anyone wanting to learn more and find the truth is - read, read, read. The Bible, other teachings of diferent faiths, books written by theologans and philosophers, books by people who have investigated what they believe. Learn about other faiths. And PRAY, even if it is to "God, if you exist...".

Talk to people of different faiths. I have no problem with someone investigating different beliefs as well as Christianity, because I have confidence that my faith is in the one true God, and the only way to salvation. Please don't take that as arrogance, but as me saying that my faith makes perfect sense to me through my experiences, the testimony of others, reading the Bible and my own intellectual investigation. And so I believe that someone who prayerfully *seeks to find the truth* and learns about different faiths as well as about Christianity will come to the same conclusion.

Thank you for your very interesting views! I was raised a very strict Christian, but I never felt any sort of personal connection with my faith or with God. I always tried to feel what I was "supposed" to feel, but it never worked for me. That's why I personally cannot feel confident that Christianity is the "absolute truth", when I've never felt anything but confusion and animosity towards it. I enjoy some of the principles, but they seem better presented to me by other religions and religious books besides the Bible. I hope someday to be as firm in a faith or belief system as you, and hopefully someday won't be too far off or a day that never comes.

 

[chefmeg]

Thank you for your very interesting views! I was raised a very strict Christian, but I never felt any sort of personal connection with my faith or with God. I always tried to feel what I was "supposed" to feel, but it never worked for me. That's why I personally cannot feel confident that Christianity is the "absolute truth", when I've never felt anything but confusion and animosity towards it. I enjoy some of the principles, but they seem better presented to me by other religions and religious books besides the Bible. I hope someday to be as firm in a faith or belief system as you, and hopefully someday won't be too far off or a day that never comes.

I would only add to your comment above, Hathery, that maybe you should try different Christian religions to find the connection you missed in your upbringing. It's just a suggestion, though!

 

[AnnieBee]

Meg, did you mean "denomination" when you said "religion"?

Hathery, I'm sorry to hear of your bad experience growing up in the Christian faith. Please don't paint all of us with the same brush! I would definitely second Meg and recommend visiting different Christian churches and denominations. While they should all be preaching and living the Gospel, unfortunately there are those that don't do this well... And again, pray that you would find the truth. And keep asking those questions! We are called to have faith, not blind faith!

 

[janetupnorth]

I agree Meg...Christian denominations, aren't all the Christianity I grew up with. That's why personally if I really get to know someone who says they are a Christian, I ask, are you a Christian or a born-again Christian. Then I know if they are on the same page as me.I am sending my daughter to a very conservative Lutheran school and while many things are dead-on with what I believe, many things are very different. They pray, they do communion in this church, but they seem like they don't have that personal connection. I've attended their services when DD has sang with the school group and I leave almost depressed. Even the exciting news of Christ's resurrection is somehow "ritualistic" in the service. They pray, but it is recited prayer, not a personal conversation with a good friend. I am glad that my church lifts me up when I go.(...and before someone knocks me, no I am NOT saying Lutherans aren't going to heaven - many are and many aren't...just like many Baptists are going to heaven, but there are many out there that may not be. We do not know what is in someone's heart unless they share it with us.)

 

[KellyTheChef]

Thanks Becky, for the link/books. I'm not sure about being eloquent, I wish I had more time to really make sure I'm being clear!

My own suggestions for reading material are the Lee Strobel books. He is a trained lawyer and investigative journalist who was an agnostic. He (reluctantly!) came to Christ after investigating Christ and the christian faith for himself. His books are "The Case for Christ", "The Case for Faith" and "The Case for a Creator".

My advice to anyone wanting to learn more and find the truth is - read, read, read. The Bible, other teachings of diferent faiths, books written by theologans and philosophers, books by people who have investigated what they believe. Learn about other faiths. And PRAY, even if it is to "God, if you exist...".

Talk to people of different faiths. I have no problem with someone investigating different beliefs as well as Christianity, because I have confidence that my faith is in the one true God, and the only way to salvation. Please don't take that as arrogance, but as me saying that my faith makes perfect sense to me through my experiences, the testimony of others, reading the Bible and my own intellectual investigation. And so I believe that someone who prayerfully *seeks to find the truth* and learns about different faiths as well as about Christianity will come to the same conclusion.

I have missed out on much of this discussion, but started reading yesterday. Annie...you have put into words what has been on my heart as I was reading through all of the posts.

And, Becky...I was going to suggest the Lee Strobel books when I found the end of this thread...and see that you already mentioned them! They are easy to read, not "preachy", and VERY factual and scientific for those (like my DH) who are very logical minded and who have a hard time wrapping their minds around faith and eternal salvation.

As for the comment a page or two back about others (Jews, Muslims, etc.) and how can they live a good and moral life and not go to heaven? It's because that is precisely what the bible says will happen! There are going to be "Christians" who won't spend eternity in heaven, too, because they tried to EARN their way in without making that CHOICE for the free gift of salvation that Jesus died for. No post that I read ever made it sound like Christians were "better than others" and that is certainly NOT what I believe. We are ALL sinners, and yet God loves EACH OF US EQUALLY and has given us the opportunity to accept what He has done for us. (By sending His son to die on a cross as the perfect sacrifice for all sin...past, present, and future.) We have to make a conscious decision to believe and accept that gift, though...He won't force it on us. Now...don't get me wrong or misinterpret my words about being a good and moral person. We, as Christians, are called to turn AWAY from our path of sin and (with God's help) live a moral and "good" life. This will be shown by the "fruits" of our actions. But, these fruits IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM will be what gets us into heaven. They will be the "icing on the cake" that we can hand over to God as proof of our love, devotion, and acceptance of His gift of salvation.

 

[Hathery]

I agree Meg...Christian denominations, aren't all the Christianity I grew up with. That's why personally if I really get to know someone who says they are a Christian, I ask, are you a Christian or a born-again Christian. Then I know if they are on the same page as me.

I am sending my daughter to a very conservative Lutheran school and while many things are dead-on with what I believe, many things are very different. They pray, they do communion in this church, but they seem like they don't have that personal connection. I've attended their services when DD has sang with the school group and I leave almost depressed. Even the exciting news of Christ's resurrection is somehow "ritualistic" in the service. They pray, but it is recited prayer, not a personal conversation with a good friend. I am glad that my church lifts me up when I go.

(...and before someone knocks me, no I am NOT saying Lutherans aren't going to heaven - many are and many aren't...just like many Baptists are going to heaven, but there are many out there that may not be. We do not know what is in someone's heart unless they share it with us.)

As you and I have discussed before, your daughter's school is the Lutheran synod I grew up with. Going to every church service was like going to a funeral, it was so somber...and for some reason everyone at the funeral is berating you for what a bad person you are. It's nothing I can be a part of. I'm glad to hear that not all churches are like that though!!

 

[janetupnorth]

As you and I have discussed before, your daughter's school is the Lutheran synod I grew up with. Going to every church service was like going to a funeral, it was so somber...and for some reason everyone at the funeral is berating you for what a bad person you are. It's nothing I can be a part of. I'm glad to hear that not all churches are like that though!!

That is very much what I'm noticing and it would be sad if it is consistent throughout the synod.

Based on that, I definitely encourage you to search through the books Becky mentioned, the Bible and churches around you, and most importantly, ask God to show you who He really is.

 

[kaseydee]

Becky & Kelly - Which one of the Lee Strobel books is best to start reading first?

 

[AnnieBee]

The case for Christ is the first one, and discusses who Jesus Christ was, evidence for his existence, things like like that.

The case for faith goes one step further and is also excellent, talks about questions of faith, taking the step from believing Christ to coming to faith, and things like, how can there be suffering in the world if GOd is a God of love...

Others can add more. Read both of them, but I would start with the case for Christ!

 

[kaseydee]

My boyfriend has some issues with his faith & it sounds like these books might help him! Thank you Annabel.

 

[Hathery]

That is very much what I'm noticing and it would be sad if it is consistent throughout the synod.

Based on that, I definitely encourage you to search through the books Becky mentioned, the Bible and churches around you, and most importantly, ask God to show you who He really is.

Thank you for the encouragement

 

[crystalscookingnow]

I grew up in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod & turned away from Christ for a while too. I definitely didn't see the point of going to church every Sunday & putting on a good face while doing whatever I (meaning my step-dad who molested me) wanted the rest of the week. It seemed like a farce & I even thought to myself (at 10), who wants a relationship with a God that doesn't care what you do as long as you're at church on Sunday.

When I married my DH, we were going to a very traditionalist church (you follow this during service, do this, then this, etc). We've since started going to a Christian church (denomonationally speaking), I've been born again & baptized. I know feel re-energized when I'm in God's word knowing that I've been saved. It's a great thing. When we go to church now, it's amazing how uplifting that can be.

I guess my point is this - it's amazing what God can *and WILL* do for you if you open your heart & invite him in.

 

[Chef Michelle D]

Abortion will continue to be a past, present and future issue. There are many other issues right now that IMO take priority over. Economy and war, are my main two.

I could not agree with you more. I have not had time to read through this whole thread yet. I only made it to post #11 so far.

I more important things to worry about like how am I going to pay my bills with the cost of everything going up. I am also worried about my DH losing his job if things get any worse with the aconomy.

Any president can say what they want to do to get elected but it takes a lot more to make those changes come to life.

 

[janetupnorth]

I could not agree with you more. I have not had time to read through this whole thread yet. I only made it to post #11 so far.

I more important things to worry about like how am I going to pay my bills with the cost of everything going up. I am also worried about my DH losing his job if things get any worse with the aconomy.

Any president can say what they want to do to get elected but it takes a lot more to make those changes come to life.

Boy is she going to get a surprise when she gets past post #11 and gets up to the 200's.

 

[KellyTheChef]

I grew up in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod & turned away from Christ for a while too. I definitely didn't see the point of going to church every Sunday & putting on a good face while doing whatever I (meaning my step-dad who molested me) wanted the rest of the week. It seemed like a farce & I even thought to myself (at 10), who wants a relationship with a God that doesn't care what you do as long as you're at church on Sunday.

When I married my DH, we were going to a very traditionalist church (you follow this during service, do this, then this, etc). We've since started going to a Christian church (denomonationally speaking), I've been born again & baptized. I know feel re-energized when I'm in God's word knowing that I've been saved. It's a great thing. When we go to church now, it's amazing how uplifting that can be.

I guess my point is this - it's amazing what God can *and WILL* do for you if you open your heart & invite him in.

Crystal....I am so glad that things have changed for you! Having that personal relationship and feeling refreshed after attending church or a bible study is such a great thing!

 

[Shawnna]

You can talk and talk and talk to someone about how wonderful God is and how many wonderful things He has done for you, but really until you experience it for yourself you do not fully understand what people are telling you. God is just so awesome. You really can't explain it. There are truly no words to describe how you feel or what you know.

 

[chefsteph07]

Boy is she going to get a surprise when she gets past post #11 and gets up to the 200's.

Janet, that really made me laugh...

 

[Kitchen Diva]

Boy is she going to get a surprise when she gets past post #11 and gets up to the 200's.

I'm lol out loud!

 

[Kitchen Diva]

You can talk and talk and talk to someone about how wonderful God is and how many wonderful things He has done for you, but really until you experience it for yourself you do not fully understand what people are telling you. God is just so awesome. You really can't explain it. There are truly no words to describe how you feel or what you know.

Very true, Shawnna...

Hathery, I sent you a PM... I apologize for its length. I'm a bit chatty if you haven't noticed by now!

 

[Shawnna]

You know, I stated in an earlier post...and on several others actually...that I am a Christian and not religious...that I don't want to be labeled as religious. Someone mentioned that you could define it however you wanted but Christianity is still a religion. This drives me crazy, but as I stated earlier, you can talk and talk and they won't "get it" until they have that experience. I was thinking about it when I was driving today and I turned the radio on AFR and there was a woman speaking about this same thing. She said "I am not religious, I am a Christian. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It's not religion its relationship". And then later I turned the radio on again and Joyce Meyers was speaking...I love Joyce Meyers...and she said the same thing. But, she was speaking in the context of a supposedly mature Christian speaking to a new Christian and acting like what the new Christian was doing was not enough because Miss Mature did so much more. And Joyce said its all about the relationship. Jesus may change Miss New Christian's heart along the way and prompt her to do more...praying, reading/studying, witnessing, etc...but for now her relationship was in the beginning stage. This is so true. I think when new people come into the church the supposedly mature Christians sometimes run them off because they put so much pressure on them to conform to man's way of thinking that they can't handle it, they can't do it so they quit. They get their feelings hurt. And, when they are watching us act that way, they don't see any need to be like us because it isn't very Godly. But, we have to remember that we each have to have our own personal relationship with Christ and He will lead us and guide us to that place He wants us to be. He will tell us when it is time to wear longer skirts, or more modest shirts...and those are just some visible examples. There are many things that have to change in our lives, but Christ is the one who should prompt us to change. We can only continue to teach, and it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict people. I know it was that way for me. I didn't want any part of church because I didn't feel like I was ever good enough. Now I know that it doesn't matter what the people think...all that matters is what God thinks. We try to help God out too much. He doesn't need our help.

 

[Kitchen Diva]

Very well said, Shawnna! I love Joyce Meyer, too!

 

[janetupnorth]

Well, I've always heard that when you are searching for the perfect church and you finally find it and start to attend it, it is no longer perfect. (Because you are there...)

 

[Kitchen Diva]

Well, I've always heard that when you are searching for the perfect church and you finally find it and start to attend it, it is no longer perfect. (Because you are there...)

What?!? I'm not perfect?? Are you sure? Cause my Mommy said I was perfect...

 

[DebbieSAChef]

Thank you for your very interesting views! I was raised a very strict Christian, but I never felt any sort of personal connection with my faith or with God. I always tried to feel what I was "supposed" to feel, but it never worked for me. That's why I personally cannot feel confident that Christianity is the "absolute truth", when I've never felt anything but confusion and animosity towards it. I enjoy some of the principles, but they seem better presented to me by other religions and religious books besides the Bible. I hope someday to be as firm in a faith or belief system as you, and hopefully someday won't be too far off or a day that never comes.

Hatherty we would love to pray that you would come to know this REAL and LIVING GOD. You see christianity is not based on "feeling", it is acknowledging our sinfulness. I saw a post of yours earlier in the thread about the fact that you don't watch Rated R movies, you don't cuss, etc... But you have to know that the bible clearly states that we are all born in SIN. No one is good but God. Before you can reach out for the cure, you must realize your sickness. Sin is a killer, it kills 100% of it's victims. As corny as that sounds, we are all going to die one day and stand before God for judgment.
And that judgment will be based on HIS law. Not our own standards or what we think is right. He is the Creator of the Universe so he makes the rules and because he is a just God, he must punish sin. I think many times people don't understand the seriousness of sin and that it is an abomination to God. To sin against this Holy God is the most horrible crime anyone can commit. Everyone must cry out to God and ask him to save them. Save them from what?
From God's coming wrath! Salvation is a gift, it's not something we can earn. Repentance and faith go hand in hand in the scriptures and without one you can't have the other. We must have faith that Christ died on the cross for our sins (not the sins of the whole world but my personal sins) and that his righteousness is now counted towards me, as if I lived a perfect sinless life.
Repentance is realizing the crimes I have committed against God when I lied, hated, fornicated, etc... were WRONG and I need to have a new heart put within me to help me follow after Him.
Being born again means being born of the spirit of God, having a new nature and a new heart where we are able to follow God's commandments, and having new desires to read the Word, pray and fellowship with believers. You are being honest about your feelings and that is good. It's better to be aware of your spiritual condition, than to be a lost self righteous Pharisee. Like some in the churches today.
Debbie

 

[DebbieSAChef]

You know, I stated in an earlier post...and on several others actually...that I am a Christian and not religious...that I don't want to be labeled as religious. Someone mentioned that you could define it however you wanted but Christianity is still a religion. This drives me crazy, but as I stated earlier, you can talk and talk and they won't "get it" until they have that experience. I was thinking about it when I was driving today and I turned the radio on AFR and there was a woman speaking about this same thing. She said "I am not religious, I am a Christian. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It's not religion its relationship". And then later I turned the radio on again and Joyce Meyers was speaking...I love Joyce Meyers...and she said the same thing. But, she was speaking in the context of a supposedly mature Christian speaking to a new Christian and acting like what the new Christian was doing was not enough because Miss Mature did so much more. And Joyce said its all about the relationship. Jesus may change Miss New Christian's heart along the way and prompt her to do more...praying, reading/studying, witnessing, etc...but for now her relationship was in the beginning stage. This is so true. I think when new people come into the church the supposedly mature Christians sometimes run them off because they put so much pressure on them to conform to man's way of thinking that they can't handle it, they can't do it so they quit. They get their feelings hurt. And, when they are watching us act that way, they don't see any need to be like us because it isn't very Godly. But, we have to remember that we each have to have our own personal relationship with Christ and He will lead us and guide us to that place He wants us to be. He will tell us when it is time to wear longer skirts, or more modest shirts...and those are just some visible examples. There are many things that have to change in our lives, but Christ is the one who should prompt us to change. We can only continue to teach, and it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict people. I know it was that way for me. I didn't want any part of church because I didn't feel like I was ever good enough. Now I know that it doesn't matter what the people think...all that matters is what God thinks. We try to help God out too much. He doesn't need our help.

I totally agree that there are people who have wrong motives when they are trying to "help" other people but the scriptures do tell us to rebuke one another in love. I have done it several times and I always pray before I speak to someone and they have always received it in love. If someone is a sister in Christ, then it is up to the older women in church to take them under their wings and disciple them. It doesn't necessarily mean older in age but older in the faith.
Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
Titus 2:3-5

I know I had an older saint take me under her wing and teach me some wonderful, godly principles to live by all from the Word of God. As a new believer I wasn't aware of some of the things that I should do, that is where discipleship comes in. Yes we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling but we are also to heed the advice of the godly. I'm sorry if someone hurt you and made you feel bad. Now I have been told some things from people also who had bad motives in churches I attended before, but God even used that advice to mold me into the person I am now. Thank you LORD!

Debbie

 

[DebbieSAChef]

I agree with that, too. I visited a Hindu Temple last night with a friend of mine who is taking a cultural studies course in college, and we were very surprised to find out that the main concepts of Hinduism are very similar to Christianity. I think it's important to learn about other people and their beliefs, so we can focus on how we are all similar...not frighten ourselves with how we are different (as so many have done with Islam.)

I agree that it is a good idea to study up on other religions because you can't tell someone that what they believe doesn't line up with God's word if you don't know anything about it. Now there might be some things that are similar but the most important thing is that the bible tells us that JESUS is the only way to the Father. He is the only way to heaven and the only one who can save mankind!
C.S. Lewis said it best "Either he was a liar, a lunatic or LORD!" Will you fall down and worship him? Or will you just ignore what he said and how you must live? There is only one way to live that is pleasing to the Lord, and that is in full submission to HIM. I can tell you from personal experience Jesus is alive and my relationship with Him is real. To feel the presence of the Lord come upon you, and I don't mean in some charismatic way where people are falling on the floor and writhing, I mean in the way that the saints of old experienced. To pray to a God who not only hears you and answers (in his timing and will) but allows you to partake in the sweet fellowship of his presence is a blessing. I have wept and he heard me and comforted me. I have rejoiced and he has rejoiced with me. I have enjoyed a closeness to him that is better than anything this world has to offer. Nothing in this world satisifes compared to Christ.

Debbie

 

[chefmeg]

Meg, did you mean "denomination" when you said "religion"?

Hathery, I'm sorry to hear of your bad experience growing up in the Christian faith. Please don't paint all of us with the same brush! I would definitely second Meg and recommend visiting different Christian churches and denominations. While they should all be preaching and living the Gospel, unfortunately there are those that don't do this well... And again, pray that you would find the truth. And keep asking those questions! We are called to have faith, not blind faith!

yes, that is what I meant~sorry for the confusion!

 

[cookingwith_tara]

Steph, if Hathery is offended let her say so. You do not have to respond if you are offended as these posts were not addressed to you. The question was meant for Hathery based on the previous posts and discussions. Which have only been questions and answers. Personally I am only trying to understand where she is coming from. And I don't see anything wrong with that motive.

I am not trying to attack you I am simply, as politely as I can, telling you that if you are offended by what is being said or what this thread has turned in to or what not, then you do not need to keep reading. Don't open it. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not being rude and I'm not trying to be ugly to you. It's just the truth. Don't open it.

 

[cookingwith_tara]

I think asking someone if they think they are going to go to Heaven based on their beliefs is not right. That's all I'm saying. I didn't need to hear the bit about the brownies, I think I get your point.

Sorry, my previous post was related to this comment.

 

[KellyTheChef]

You know, I stated in an earlier post...and on several others actually...that I am a Christian and not religious...that I don't want to be labeled as religious. Someone mentioned that you could define it however you wanted but Christianity is still a religion. This drives me crazy, but as I stated earlier, you can talk and talk and they won't "get it" until they have that experience. I was thinking about it when I was driving today and I turned the radio on AFR and there was a woman speaking about this same thing. She said "I am not religious, I am a Christian. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It's not religion its relationship". And then later I turned the radio on again and Joyce Meyers was speaking...I love Joyce Meyers...and she said the same thing. But, she was speaking in the context of a supposedly mature Christian speaking to a new Christian and acting like what the new Christian was doing was not enough because Miss Mature did so much more. And Joyce said its all about the relationship. Jesus may change Miss New Christian's heart along the way and prompt her to do more...praying, reading/studying, witnessing, etc...but for now her relationship was in the beginning stage. This is so true. I think when new people come into the church the supposedly mature Christians sometimes run them off because they put so much pressure on them to conform to man's way of thinking that they can't handle it, they can't do it so they quit. They get their feelings hurt. And, when they are watching us act that way, they don't see any need to be like us because it isn't very Godly. But, we have to remember that we each have to have our own personal relationship with Christ and He will lead us and guide us to that place He wants us to be. He will tell us when it is time to wear longer skirts, or more modest shirts...and those are just some visible examples. There are many things that have to change in our lives, but Christ is the one who should prompt us to change. We can only continue to teach, and it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict people. I know it was that way for me. I didn't want any part of church because I didn't feel like I was ever good enough. Now I know that it doesn't matter what the people think...all that matters is what God thinks. We try to help God out too much. He doesn't need our help.

I couldn't agree more! I have seen this happen at our church over and over again. The "older" (as in more experienced AND older in age...) members just about POUNCE on anyone new who comes to visit or who starts attending regularly. I know they mean well...but how can you tell someone who you DON'T EVEN KNOW YET what they need to do?

Debbie...I can see your point about correcting in love after prayer about something, but I don't think that's what Shawnna was talking about. (Shawnna can correct me there, since I am not sure if I am thinking the same way she is. That is NOT what I am talking about here.) You need to be led by God to correct someone, but in many churches there are way too many people who want to run around telling everyone else what THEY should be doing, all while "ignoring the plank in their own eye." It's easier to tell others what they are doing wrong than to look first at ourselves and see the areas where God needs to mold us. THIS is one of the reasons that Christians (as people, as a religion, etc.) get a bad name and turn people who are genuinely searching AWAY from the church.

 

[cookingwith_tara]

Thank you for your very interesting views! I was raised a very strict Christian, but I never felt any sort of personal connection with my faith or with God. I always tried to feel what I was "supposed" to feel, but it never worked for me. That's why I personally cannot feel confident that Christianity is the "absolute truth", when I've never felt anything but confusion and animosity towards it. I enjoy some of the principles, but they seem better presented to me by other religions and religious books besides the Bible. I hope someday to be as firm in a faith or belief system as you, and hopefully someday won't be too far off or a day that never comes.

Being a Christian is just your way of life. A Christian is a 'follower of Christ'. If you can believe and accept that Christ died on the cross, was burried, and rose again the 3rd day and that he did it to pay YOUR penalty for sin, so that WHEN you die you CAN go to heaven, asking forgiveness, and receiving Him into your heart to be your Lord and Savior, and you truly mean it (like you will start living for Him), then you will be saved.

Here's the way to Salvation - for anyone (KJV just means it is taken from the King James Version Bible, which is the only one I use)

The Romans Road to Salvation!
God Loves You! God wants You to have His Peace and Eternal Life.
Romans 5:8 (KJV) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Sin separates us from God.
God's Peace and Eternal Life are lost because of our sins.
Romans 5:12 (KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

God has provided a gift of New Life. This Life is in Jesus Christ.
Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You can have this Life! This Life is made available through Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1 (KJV) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Romans 1:16 (KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 5:21 (KJV) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 10:9 (KJV) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:10 (KJV) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A great example of the "Roman Road" is found in Acts 16:16-34. Paul and Silas were imprisoned (for healing a young woman in the name of Jesus Christ), but through the power of God, an earthquake came and everyone in the prison were freed. The keeper of the prison was about to kill himself but Paul intervened. The jailer ran into the jail and fell at the feet of Paul asking, "What must I do to be saved?" Acts 16:31 records Paul and Silas' response, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Have you had to deal with earthshaking events/crisis in your own journey through life with no hope? If so, may be its time for you to ask the same question the keeper of the prison asked of Paul and Silas, the answer awaits you on the Roman Road.

- - - - - -

I want to put my belief in a God, the only God that is still alive today. One who loves me enough that he so willingly gave his life for me, died to defeat Satan so that he no longer had a hold on me, and then rose again to bring newness of life in Heaven for eternity. Someone with that wonderful, unconditional love is proof enough for me that there is something worth living for and His name is Jesus! I still sin, we all do, no one is perfect, but because of Salvation, and because I accepted it, I can ask for forgiveness and know that He forgives me. We don't have all the answers and we will never have them. But I don't want a hope so, maybe so, think so salvation. I want to know so. And that, I do! I know I am going to heaven when I die because Jesus said it, I believed it, and that's good enough for me! It's Jesus! There's just something about that name! Jesus!

 

[Shawnna]

thats what I meant...I was referring to Joyce Meyers. I believe in correcting with love. But, you have to be led by God when you are correcting someone. My example was from a long time ago and it wasn't from anyone in my church. It was actually from family who thinks their denomination is the only one going to heaven and they would just tell me that I was not saved because of this and this and this and....and the list goes on. They don't seem to ever talk about Christs love and the good things. It is always you can't do this and you can't do that, etc. And it is based on things God has convicted them from.

We have to be very careful what we say to each other because if we offend someone we are held responsible in the sight of God. And, if we turn them away from God forever, their blood will be on our hands.

That being said, we can't make excuses because of how people act because we go to Church and follow God/Jesus/Holy Spirirt not people. We don't go to church for the pastor or the congregation. We go for Jesus. We don't do Christian work for other people. We do it for Jesus...at least that is the way it should be. If we do those things for "man" then we are just like the Pharasees. That is "religion"...works.

 

[heather223]

Hatherty we would love to pray that you would come to know this REAL and LIVING GOD. You see christianity is not based on "feeling", it is acknowledging our sinfulness. I saw a post of yours earlier in the thread about the fact that you don't watch Rated R movies, you don't cuss, etc... But you have to know that the bible clearly states that we are all born in SIN. No one is good but God. Before you can reach out for the cure, you must realize your sickness. Sin is a killer, it kills 100% of it's victims. As corny as that sounds, we are all going to die one day and stand before God for judgment.
And that judgment will be based on HIS law. Not our own standards or what we think is right. He is the Creator of the Universe so he makes the rules and because he is a just God, he must punish sin. I think many times people don't understand the seriousness of sin and that it is an abomination to God. To sin against this Holy God is the most horrible crime anyone can commit. Everyone must cry out to God and ask him to save them. Save them from what?
From God's coming wrath! Salvation is a gift, it's not something we can earn. Repentance and faith go hand in hand in the scriptures and without one you can't have the other. We must have faith that Christ died on the cross for our sins (not the sins of the whole world but my personal sins) and that his righteousness is now counted towards me, as if I lived a perfect sinless life.
Repentance is realizing the crimes I have committed against God when I lied, hated, fornicated, etc... were WRONG and I need to have a new heart put within me to help me follow after Him.
Being born again means being born of the spirit of God, having a new nature and a new heart where we are able to follow God's commandments, and having new desires to read the Word, pray and fellowship with believers. You are being honest about your feelings and that is good. It's better to be aware of your spiritual condition, than to be a lost self righteous Pharisee. Like some in the churches today.
Debbie

Debbie... Wow this really makes sense to me!! After reading about all the different types of religion for the last 2 weeks this is the first easy to read and understand thing I have come across!! Thank you!

 

[chefsteph07]

Steph, if Hathery is offended let her say so. You do not have to respond if you are offended as these posts were not addressed to you. The question was meant for Hathery based on the previous posts and discussions. Which have only been questions and answers. Personally I am only trying to understand where she is coming from. And I don't see anything wrong with that motive.

I am not trying to attack you I am simply, as politely as I can, telling you that if you are offended by what is being said or what this thread has turned in to or what not, then you do not need to keep reading. Don't open it. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not being rude and I'm not trying to be ugly to you. It's just the truth. Don't open it.

Fine. I won't post on this again.